Questions for the Brits on health care

[kvltism]

Bill, I supported Ron Paul's campaign too, and continue to support Campaign for Liberty. Big government does need to be reeled back in and stop infringing upon civil society.

With that said, the state providing basic care for its citizenry is indeed a moral imperative. Your country has the most expensive health-care system on the planet, yet only ranks around the 20s-30s in quality of care. You as an American have a lower life expectancy and face a much higher risk of obesity, heart disease and the like - not a good prospect. AJ is right to an extent, there is going to be abuse if you insert a layer of bureaucracy. But there is already widespread abuse, from bureaucrats representing insurance companies scouring for ways to deny people care and shirk the obligation they assumed when approving an insurance policy. All for the fucking bottom line.

Tending to a person's health should not be treated as an unwanted expense. It is no coincidence that nations such as France and Germany, which do have "socialized medicine," have a far more productive, healthy and content workforce. See, by keeping citizens healthy, you'll get more of a contribution from them. They are less likely to be laid off on disability benefits and rack up sick days, meaning they can work more hours, generating more income which leads to a higher intake for the tax coffers. My beef with income tax (state-sanctioned theft) can be discussed some other time.

Immigration is something which has to be looked at. Illegal immigrants should not be given free health-care that citizens are paying for with their taxes. However, the Democrats (because they're working w/big pharmaceutical and insurance companies) are likely to table a bill with some form of "insurance tax." Make it compulsory for everyone to be insured, and it provides millions of new customers for the big insurers. But more importantly, the bulk of America's uninsured (illegal immigrants and people who qualify for, but don't claim, Medicare/Medicaid don't count) are healthy folk who simply don't want insurance. Basically, because they're so unlikely to be claiming, it provides ample funds for those less fortunate to be covered. The cost of taking out a policy should be driven down in turn, though I don't trust the insurance industry bureaucrats as far as I'd throw them.

"What's the point of working hard when you won't have anything to show for it and will be regarded the same as all your peers?" The capitalist system won't be affected. And as I said earlier, looking upon provision of health-care with the profit motive in mind is unethical. Plenty of other nations (mine included) have public-funded health-care, and yield much greater outcomes than your nation does; at a fraction of the cost. That's because they break the insurance/pharmaceutical industries' monopoly, whereas Washington is overrun by their lobbyists. Yet the citizenry of these nations still have plenty of spending power. Funny how that works.

[Anthony Jordan]

I think you took my capitalist argument as thinking the taxes levied would cripple the consumers' buying power. I was actually thinking of the doctors and researchers. I don't think it's unethical for them to want their hard work to pay off. They work hard for their education and perform a job that literally saves lives. That warrants a desire to be handsomely rewarded. Also, they become government employees, which means they lose their individual identities. Say someone discovers the cure for cancer. His name will be lost as the government will claim the credit and the champions of socialist structure will brag of how the government solves all our woes.

While claiming that health-care is the sole source for the more productive workforces abroad, you fail to note that they receive more vacation time (among additional perks). Also, I want to know on what basis are they more productive? Is it simply fewer days missed? Are they more profitable? Clarification is needed.

Supporting this violates my ideological views of what government should be capable of. I see your practical argument (though it doesn't account for some of the horror stories that citizens of countries with socialized medicine tell), but I'm shocked to see you taking a practical stances versus an ideological one. To me the latter is more important because if you change your make-up and structure to fix one problem, then where do you stop? Also, which problems do you choose to correct? The ones with the loudest violin playing? The ends don't justify the means. Fighting big government is a uniquely American ideal. We're the country that cut all ties the Crown and inherently distrust any collection of power (though, sadly, the move to the left via FDR and LBJ put a sizable dent in what we will and won't accept). It's going to be fought here.

Sadly, I see it winning along with a host of leftist issues and stances imported from Europe. Freedom will be jettisoned for equality (a cause which is easier to abuse and often a joke) and allowing people to pat themselves on the back for doing good despite destroying the means for the decision-making that made this country a powerhouse for much of its existence. I suppose with the government buying everything for me, I don't need money to call my own, anyway.

[kvltism]

You talk about America is if it's the shining beacon of freedom. Once upon a time it was, but that day has been and gone. Problem is that most of the "anti-big government" sentiment there is empty rhetoric, and the ideas themselves predominantly originated from the French Revolution anyway. The USA is ground zero for centralized power in this world, and has been for nearly a century. You have been fed a pile of bullshit from jingoistic cretins whitewashing history. Conspiracies to oust/unsettle governments in order to appease multinational corporations (with the laughable "national security" quip used for justification), erosion of the citizen's constitutional rights through a combination of egregious legislation, activist judicial decisions, Executive Orders and an apathetic populace... and the New York-based cabal which controls policy via Washington. Those things are never talked about as a package, but often get cherry-picked to suit some imbecile's agenda.

Do you believe it's a coincidence that New York City hosts the United Nations (on land which was "donated" by the Rockefellers), and that the US pays around a quarter of its operating expenses? Government in the US has been expanding in size and scope since before FDR or LBJ, it ramped up in the early 20th century in fact. Even with the likes of Ronald Reagan, who was supposedly against big government, it grew at a ridiculous rate. He just knew how to spin a yarn so people fell for the "I'm for limited government" myth, hook line and sinker. It is a sad state of affairs when authority figures can frame blatant deprivation of civil liberties as "safeguarding the public" and people just go along with it. Someone should be keeping you safe from them! Soon enough you're going to wake up and wonder why your freedom has dissipated. In many ways it already has.


On the doctors: There's nothing wrong with expecting to be adequately compensated for R&D or rendering a quality service. But at present, Americans are paying more than anyone else for a health-care system that simply isn't up to snuff. Waiting lists and rationing are a big problem with nationalized health-care system, no-one in their right mind would deny it. But snakes using those flaws as a smokescreen to justify retaining the status quo is poor form and intellectually dishonest. A great deal of innovation over the past couple of centuries has come from people working on the government's dime: the overwhelming majority received the credit and reward their work merited. Australia is among the world's best in medical innovation - basically all of it is government-funded research, and those who do the work are rightly acknowledged. A great example is Dr. Fiona Wood, whose research on the treatment of burns helped many victims of the Bali bombings, who would have been deformed for life, restore their skin to normal and heavily reduce scarring. Her work has won world renown and was done at Royal Perth Hospital, government-funded.


On productivity: you're right that additional holiday time, maternity leave, marriage leave and home assistance for new parents helps workers in many European nations achieve better outcomes. For each hour on the clock, they bring in more money than their American counterparts. It seems that somewhere along the line, those in power in the US departed from the notion that a happy worker is a good worker, or that an honest day's work warrants an honest day's pay. Controlling people is a much easier proposition when people are kept as wage-slaves: make the majority live paycheck-to-paycheck by paying peanuts, then use employee insurance coverage/discount cards and the like to keep them relying on said job to make ends meet. The best part is when you hear that "If you don't like it, you're free to go work somewhere else" line. What a fucking joke.


On ideology vs. practicality: practical solutions are what we should be aspiring to. Or, better yet, demand them from the puppets who claim to be representing us. Ideology helps foster narrow-mindedness and encourages that "us vs. them" mentality which makes everyone lose and the elites win, it is inherent in the two-party system. Even worse when both parties represent the same interests and the same policies from a big-picture standpoint, because that makes it all a distraction. "Freedom will be jettisoned for equality"? What a crock. Equality in health-care would be wonderful, keeping everyone healthy irrespective of class, race, age, etc. Of course, that is contingent on setting up adequate infrastructure and incentive for more college places and jobs can be created in medicine - you'll need more doctors and nurses. Consider this, if your country spent just a fraction as much on keeping its people healthy as it did on interventionist foreign policy at the behest of corporate interests and one-worlders, you'd be well looked after. Then they could be truly free to experience that trifecta your leaders keep yapping about in their vacuous talking points: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Anthony Jordan]

You talk about the Manifest Destiny as if it is completely awful. During its infancy, the US was one of many nations on what would eventually be the United States as we know it. Even after breaking free of British rule, we weren't shown any respect (War of 1812). Seeing all the in-fighting and destruction in Europe, we realized that it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to be secure in a region without hegemony, so we took it. The means by achieving it (esp. the treatment of aborigines) were horrible, yet it was no worse than how the British Empire expanded. Doesn't justify it, but proves that Americans didn't invent expanding by slaughtering and lying to natives. This goes without mentioning the Cold War. Having multiple warheads pointed at us by the Soviet Union (who were damn sure batshit crazy enough to let them fly) also factored in to our view of the world. How could 40 years of potential nuclear war not affect a nation's psyche? Then when the terrorists get really ballsy, we suffer the biggest losses. I feel for the victims in London and Spain post-9/11, but it wasn't anything to top losing the World Trade Center. I'd argue that our economy still hasn't recovered from that (forget the housing bubble popping).

I'm upset about the direction my country has taken, but I will defend it against some of your claims because I do love it and believe in it. I was born an American citizen, and I truly envision myself dying as one. I don't care for this "world citizen" bullshit. Also, I trashed Obama for being pure rhetoric, so I must attack you on the same grounds. You're going all "conspiracy theorist" on us, yet you haven't produced any evidence. I'm distrustful of government and any collection of wealth/power, but there is still a burden of proof that needs to be obtained by anyone trashing it. I don't buy into your Euro-centric view of my country and how the leftist policies you support instantly would fix everything. I don't think Europe (and non-European countries that still pledge support to the Queen) is doing things so much better than we are. You have this blind faith in a workforce that will be good, happy and productive when supplied with more from the government. I see people asking for more until we're in a communist state (then you'd really disapprove of government abuses).

I don't have a lot of faith in the government or corporations, and I know they don't always have the best interests of the citizens/consumers. That being said, I don't think there is some elite core running everything through a shadow government. I do believe that our population is apathetic and only get motivated for rather meaningless issues (the culture seems to be big on same-sex marriage, yet, that fails to rank in the top half of important issues that need to be addressed). This is a result of failure of the citizenry. We got weak as a people and chose to fight for issues that give us emotional satisfaction versus make us function better as a nation, but some of it needed to happen (civil rights and voting rights, anyone?).

However, I do offer a remedy for the United States and that is a return to true federalism. States need more power that has been stripped from them by the Supreme Court in the 20th Century (and a horrific interpretation of "Interstate Commerce" not to mention that "State Sovereignty" became synonymous with "bigoted, prejudiced, racists" in the 50s and 60s, which is one of the worst things to come from that era). If that is implemented, I believe massive changes would occur. Health care problems would be handled in a way that suits the beliefs and values of the citizens of that State. If a State wants to fund health-care for its people, then let them have that problem. You would have options to actually leave and not be stuck in government that spans the whole nation.

That brings us to ideology vs. practicality. How foolish is it just to implement whatever you want, however you want because you think it will work. If you take that view of governance, then you'll get something worse than what we're looking at presently. There has to be a model for legislating and policy-making, and it has be deeper than "Oooooooooo, this looks good! LET'S DO IT!" I see much merit in the logic that says "The means are wrong, so the ends are invalid no matter how pleasing they appear to be." That's what's wrong in my country. People just want instant solutions (prepared quicker than a microwavable dinner) and don't give a damn about the precedence set. My political views are based off my ideals: I see how I want my country to be and the proper means for achieving. If some dictator swept over the whole country and gave me a system that met all of desires for the United States, I'd reject it because I believe that is the wrong way to go about change. It's practical for what I want, but it violates my ideology; thus I reject it. To take a practical stance like this, aligns you closer to the ones you disapprove of.

[AWA Staff]

Alls I really know is that my friend was getting Govn help and had a child...she didn't have to pay for anything.

Meanwhile, Dawn and I are paying taxes and part of her contract makes the teachers pay for 1/3 of her insurance and the company would only cover 4 trips to the OBGYN......



It jerks my fucking chain how in this country, the people that are busting their ass, paying their dues and trying to make things good, they get fucked.

Obama passed something to help homeowners refinance and lower their intrest rate. We called the bank and were told:

"It's only if you are in danger of foreclosure and can't make your proper payments."



Wait...WHAT?!


So, basically, what this country says is this:

"If you are irresponsable with your money and throw it away, or if you are to lazy to bother to work, we will take care of you. But, if you can actually make your payments and pay your taxes..... fuck you"


We have both claimed 'Exempt' this year and we will NOT be paying any taxes to the gov. Just school tax.


Fuck this country, I hope 2012 happens in three years.

[kvltism]

Bill, I'm sorry, and more than a little angry, to hear that you and your wife - like countless other decent, tax-paying (good on you for opting out of income tax though), hard-working folks - are copping it on the chin while irresponsible buffoons are given a free ride. You'll eventually get a fair shake, have to keep at least some faith that it will happen. Of course it hinges on more people waking up to a century's worth of lies and scapegoating which is a tough ask.

AJ, you deserve a proper response with a little more meat and potatoes to flesh out the discussion. I'll endeavour to extend such a courtesy tomorrow, but I will say this now. You have mistaken a few of my stances, or at least what they entail. I am not a corporatist, globalist or statist. And Left-Right isn't really a valid paradigm.

[SLAM II]

dude, after what bill just said makes me depressed.

[Anthony Jordan]

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as perfect governance. If you give the government a ton of power and money and entrust them to look out for the common welfare of its citizens, then that trust is destined to be abused. If you make the national government too weak and underfunded, you have ineffective leadership who cannot organize the country (see: United States during the Articles of Confederation). That's the dichotomy for governance (Dylan is right about a 2-D political spectrum for ideology. It really doesn't exist). I lean toward the latter option because I find a powerful, centralized government to be a bigger threat.

[SLAM II]

Communism could be the answer. but who can you say honestly you could endow that power of ruling everything...anything he says goes....who could you put into that position that would ever be uncorruptail?

[kvltism]

Sorry AJ. As I'm sure you have noticed, the only online activity I have managed recently has been using Facebook and Twitter on my phone. The network card in my PC fried and had to be replaced. Expect a reply in your PM's sometime.

Slam: a communal philosophy could work, but Communism is a proven failure. Once you start centralizing governance, as in Western societies which are under elite rule, the scope for corruption and misappropriation becomes obscene. For a communal system to work, you'd have to see a resurgence in smaller (village-like) communities and a downturn in big-city metropolises. All in all, not a bad thing.

I believe that the Chinese (human rights aside) strike a reasonable balance between capitalism and collectivism. A key aspect is in their culture; elites have forced us Westerners into a debt-based society. We produce less, consume more and don't even need the money (not unfunded paper, coined currency) to pay for it. In Chinese culture, it is not only seen as immoral to be indebted to a person with no means to repay in a timely manner, it is also dishonourable. America is on bent-knee before the Chinese right now for a reason. They have no need to be dictated to by scum like the Rockefellers or Henry Kissinger. There is plenty of merit to this exchange, from (of all places) the PC game Deus Ex:

JC Denton: You said 'outside influences.' What does China fear?

Isaac: China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing - unlike U.N.-governed countries - to give its people the freedom to do what they want.

JC Denton: As long as they don’t break the law.

Isaac: Listen to me. This is real freedom, freedom to own property, make a profit, make your life. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only financial power.

JC Denton: Our governments have limited power by design.

Isaac: Rhetoric - and you believe it! Don’t you know where those slogans come from?

JC Denton: I give up.

Isaac: Well-paid researchers - how do you say it? - 'think tanks,' funded by big businesses. What is that? A 'think tank'?

JC Denton: Hardly as sinister as a dictator, like China’s Premier.

Isaac: It’s privately-funded propaganda. The Trilateral Commission in the United States for instance.

JC Denton: The separation of powers acknowledges the petty ambitions of individuals; that’s its strength.

Isaac: A system organized around the weakest qualities of individuals will produce these same qualities in its leaders.

JC Denton: Perhaps certain qualities are an inseparable part of human nature.

Isaac: The mark of the educated man is the suppression of these qualities in favor of better ones. The same is true of civilization.

Also, never forget that "When government surveillance and intimidation is called 'freedom from terrorism' or 'liberation from crime', freedom and liberty have become words without meanings."

[Anthony Jordan]

Government has to fit the cultural. Eastern cultures place more emphasis on a group versus the individual. They don't mind the government controlling a lot because they know they are represented by people with the same beliefs. Of course, China is not nearly as diverse as the US. Ironically, the country that may be the most diverse over there is Japan (the country that didn't allow outsiders until about 400-500 years ago).

I dispute your claim about elites because they exist in every culture. China had them until they fled to Taiwan and were replaced by a new elitist structure (for China to get to its current position, they did some horrible things under Mao in the name of communism and uniting the people). Elitism is human nature, not just something we in the West concocted.

I'm just not drinking the conspiracy Kool-Aid. Maybe their approach to finances is better, but the US, in particular, wasn't doing terribly until recently (in its history). We had the normal recessions and depressions, but didn't start getting grossly in debt until leaders wouldn't make the choice between decreasing spending or raising taxes.

[kvltism]

The lowest your nation's debt has been was in the 1830's, thanks to a grossly underrated leader in Andrew Jackson. Note that he was also brave enough to hold the line against influential bankers who pushed him hard to keep the National Bank; now known as the private (unconstitutional) Federal Reserve. Since the foolish Woodrow Wilson unleashed that demon again, the US dollar has been devalued by about 96% due to rigged interest rates, wanton printing of worthless paper "currency" and endless government expansion.

Wake up, taxes and spending have been going up for decades. Following the numbers shows that it's really a massive shell game - both parties do it with the people coming up a cropper. Income tax is reduced --> other surcharges are introduced/bumped up; social spending goes down --> military spending goes up, etc.

[MTMT]

I'm revising this topic for a very personal reason... one of my best friends just found out that her cervical cancer has been advanced to level 4. (There are 5 levels total).

She has no health insurance, and hasn't been eligible for a long time. She's kind of an international citizen (parents live in France, went to school all throughout Europe before settling in Florida, now goes to college in Missouri), so she wasn't exactly in a stable setting when she was healthy. She's completely independent as well, paying out of her own pocket for school and cost of living- so of course she's in debt as it is. You're looking at extra hundreds of thousands of dollars it would take for her to get the surgery she needs. (And since she is not a French citizen, she couldn't just go live with her parents to get treatment). So even if she did not have a "pre-existing condition," she still wouldn't not be able to afford it.

Now, I know it's not fair to bring a personal matter into a large debate... but hell, personal matters are how I shaped my opinions to begin with. Gay marriage, the war in Iraq or Afghanistan... I have opinions on these issues because they effect me or my loved ones.

I still cannot honestly say that Universal Health Care is the way to go... but what REALLY pisses me off is that the Republicans are not offering any alternative solutions. They're so passionate in saying the a public option would make matters worse, not better... well, then, think of something else! Because dammit all, I can say with 100% confidence that the current health insurance system is failing this nation.

I'm fortunate and grateful for the fact that my parents have jobs that provide me with insurance- but six months from now, I'm fucked. I won't be a full-time student anymore, and I'm going to be an actor- probably the worst job stability imaginable. Health insurance at this point is a LUXURY! When you're living paycheck to paycheck, then health insurance isn't seen as a necessity. But it is!

If we had a reliable health care system, my friend would have been healthy ages ago. They would have treated her cancer back at level one. It would have been a less complicated and less expensive procedure. But now it's worse than ever, and God help her if it gets to level five.

Fucking something needs to be done. Anything.

[AWA Staff]

I hate to sound like the asshole but, since that's what I am:


So what if she has insurance or not? Crazy Donnie's mom had insurance, had the surgery for her cancer, had the treatments and everything....then, died from that same cancer! Did it really matter if she had insurance or not? Obviously not!



Face it, no matter what this country needs.....Obama ain't gonna do shit about it. Jus tlike Bush didn't do a fucking thing.

There's no jobs, there's no money, there's no help for people that actually need/deserve it.

People that are a wase of life are running around taking advantage of the gov. they have 6 babies they can't handle just to get the money from the government to spend on themselves. They make up bullshit excuses to get disability. They spend their money like they actually have some, can't pay their mortage cause of it and....get rewarded with Gov help.

Me? I bust my ass with the shitty paying job I have, she busts her ass picking up extra hours....I'm doing anything I can to make a few extra bucks so we can pay the mortage on time....and what does the bank say when we want their help with a refinance?

"Sorry, you have to be in danger of foreclosure"


Fuck Obama, Fuck his healthcare, his war, his economy stimulus..... Fuck them all.

[MTMT]

Addressing the cancer... had my friend been able to get health care early enough, she would have been able to have the procedure at a much easier stage. Almost every type of cancer is curable if it's caught early enough- I think they had caught hers at level 2, which still was more treatable. Now even if she has the procedure, there's no guarantee it will work.

Cancer is a bitch.